1. On a scale of (0) most disagreement, to (5) neutral, to (10) most
agreement, what is your view on whether encouraging more
teacher-governed schools is an appropriate way to try to introduce
more innovation in education?
2. On a scale of (0) most disagreement, to (5) neutral, to (10) most
agreement, what is your view on whether teacher-governed schools
should be allowed within existing school districts, if approved by the
school board and the teachers union?
3. On a scale of (0) most disagreement, to (5) neutral, to (10) most
agreement, would more highly talented individuals enter teaching if
more teacher-governed schools were possible?
4. On a scale of (0) most disagreement, to (5) neutral, to (10) most
agreement, should colleges of education do more to explicitly prepare
future teachers for the possibility of teachers running their own
Cairns (10) (10) (10) (10)
As well as more innovative and different
ways of teaching.
Dennis Johnson (0) (0) (0) (0)
How about parent-run schools instead? Schools are now run by the
teacher's unions - see what that has brought us.
White (10) (10) (10) (10)
Great discussion. Curt knows his stuff.
Fraser (10) (10) (9) (10)
Quie (10) (10) (_) (10)
Dorfman (5) (5) (10) (5)
Question 3: Though it would depend upon the quality of the other
Question 4: We should abolish Colleges of Education and
require all teachers to gain an academic liberal arts degree from an
accredited university. Pedagogy could be developed through a more
sophisticated and meaningful "teacher mentor program." In my view, the
fundamental problem in k-12 is the overall poor quality of the
teachers. They have the lowest college entrance exam scores, on
average, and the coursework inside colleges of education is mediocre
at best. I understand that the Carnegie and Bush Foundations are
working on this matter.
Turning schools over to relatively unskilled people will do nothing
save for waste more public money. When the market place wants
competence it goes to the best, most prestigious Colleges and
Universities and picks among the highest performing students in the
skill areas required. More competent people will go into education
when the environment in thee schools becomes more like Google, and the
3M of 20 years ago. Mediocrity breeds contempt and boredom.
Jackie Underferth (5) (8) (0) (7)
Jennings (9) (9) (8) (8)
Oshiro (5) (5) (5) (5)
For me, this
session raises more question than it answers beginning with "What are
barriers now?", "How are these schools to be accountable?, and "If
teachers are working so hard, are we limiting ability of staff to both
teach and care for their own families?"
Hamm (8) (0) (7) (5)
Question 1: My
only reason for not giving a 10 is that it depends on how. Under
control of the Socialist model we have now no, under local independent
Nothing would jeopardize the whole effort quicker than either central
control model or teacher unions undermining anything that challenges
either of them.
Question 3. Quite
possibly, but be careful how you define better qualified. In the
1890's we started out with only a High School Education required to
teach school. You were given a two volume teachers guide that covered
K-12 and you went to work Then came the one year and two year degrees,
after WWII we stepped up to a 4 yr degree. Then in the mid 60's we got
the Teachers Union and teachers rights became increasingly more
important than the quality of education the children were getting.
While this explanation is a bit simplistic it does capture the gist of
it. Arguably the best teachers we had were in the late 50's early 60's
when the vocabulary levels of students were at their highest.
Question 4. They
are having a hard enough time just bringing their entry level students
up to an adequate level to enter college.
While I found
Curt's points of view interesting and some I even agreed with, I would
still term him an education insider still clinging to the top down
Prest (3) (6) (3) (1)
I am extremely skeptical of any initiative proposed by E/E that
ultimately benefits E/E. Most of these initiatives once in law are
permanent even if they fail to perform as intended. i.e. charter
schools, desegregation districts, etc. There are many routes to
privatization of education and this appears to be one more. Many
assumptions, and references in Mr. Johnson's comments seem to me to be
oversimplified or misleading. There is little or no likelihood that
this vision can be accomplished without additional investment
(detracting from the investment in the schools that are available to
all students). Mr. Johnson states there is no real opposition...very
I agree schools need to be freed up and supported to do some
responsible risk-taking. They need to be allowed to explore new
options and emphasis. Yet everything the government does seems to
drive them in the other direction.
Question 1: Teachers are not educated to govern/manage schools. They
have pursued instructional careers. When site based decision making
was lauded many sites suffered from a resistance on the part of
teachers to play management roles. Teachers have chosen their careers
for a reason...because they love to be involved in that aha moment
each time a student experiences it. Teachers have very specific
training as do administrators. To devalue the distinctions of those
skill/training sets is to devalue education itself. I am always amazed
that the legislature entertains a variety of ways to remove
restrictions and mandates from these alternative school systems but
not from school districts themselves.
Question 2: Allowed yes, but local school boards should not lose
control of the decision as to whether or not the schools are effective
enough to continue. The schools should not automatically be given
charter status if schools boards remove support. School boards are
elected by the people and should be given local decision making
Question 3: Perhaps some but again, teachers do not tend to be driven
by management prerogatives or responsibilities. I do think teachers
would be more likely to enter or stay in teaching if they were less
restricted by the state and federal government.
Question 4: Teachers can choose this course in graduate work in
administration if they so choose.
Donald H. Anderson (7) (8) (5) (5)
Charles Lutz (8) (8) (8) (9)
Durenberger (10) (5) (10) (10)
Bishop (8) (8) (8) (10)
Anderson (9) (9) (10) (10)
Frenzel (7) (8) (4) (5)
Hively (10) (10) (8) (6)
Senn (10) (10) (10) (10)
Press (0) (0) (0) (5)
T. Brown (5) (5) (4) (0)
It's not clear to
me just what the reasoning is for these teacher-run schools rather
than simply more charter schools, unless it is that "teachers would
continue to be employees of the district, operate under state tenure
laws and would continue to be members of the teachers union." So they
are protected in the event of failure of the school, given that they
have tenure, and continue their collective bargaining and other union
rights. Hmmm, doesn't sound like a truly competitive model and I'm not
sure how one can both manage a school and have bargaining
representation through a union. I guess I need to know more.
Question 3: I think the biggest contributor to the decline in the
quality of public education is the women's movement, which gave women
career opportunities outside of teaching and nursing and secretarial.
Yes, one way that private sector jobs are more attractive is they may
offer more independence, so teacher governed schools might make a
small difference at the margin. But I think it is the overall package,
probably starting with salary and respect, that will have to be more
competitive with private sector opportunities before these "highly
talented individuals" will enter teaching in any significant number.
Question 4: Seems to me the ed schools are not preparing
teachers all that well for just teaching without adding on additional
Loritz (10) (10) (10) (10)
Carolyn Ring (5) (7) (5) (8)
Question 1: Whose
in Charge? Competition among teachers for primary roles would have to
be worked out for accountability.
Question 2: On an
experimental basis with excellent criteria for measurement of success.
Question 3: As in
any profession you will always have some very good and others not so
good. We have 2 daughters who are teachers and 2 granddaughters who
are teachers, all of whom could make much more money in other jobs,
but are dedicated to educating children. They all feel it is the most
important profession there is, as you are preparing children for life.
I think especially of my granddaughter who has a physics degree and
an education degree. She could make at least 2-3 times as much money
in business and has been offered such. She is dedicated to teaching
high school students in a St. Paul city public school and encouraging
them enthusiastically and innovatively to be interested in science. I
know so many other teachers that fall in to the same category. It is
discouraging to them to have constant writings and media opinions that
we need better teachers. Many are already there, if given the
supplies (which often they buy), parental involvement, smaller classes
and encouragement they need. Maybe teacher governed schools is the
answer, but I am not sure.
Robert J. Brown (8) (10) (8) (10)
been too few examples to be sure, but it is worth a try. The first
effort I know of in Minnesota to try teacher governed schools was in
City and it was
abandoned in a few years because it seemed to be even more
bureaucratic and slow to get decisions than I the traditional
structure. I think the Henderson model works well, but, as with many
innovations, there are questions about the ability to scale up.
Question 3: I
donít know if you would get more talented people, but you would get a
different type of person than those who want the current system. Also,
a lot would depend on the teacher training programs to make candidates
aware of the new model.
Schools of education should prepare student for all possible types of
Stone (5) (5) (5) (5)
sold. I have a problem finding the constitutional or moral authority
that requires permission from a teacherís union to start a new school.
The plan mentions that teachers would ďwork harder than they ever
imagined, but do so with greater satisfaction.Ē It was my
understanding that avoiding this sort of exploitation was the
rationale behind unions. One also needs to question whether or not
satisfaction may encounter diminishing returns over the years on the
teacherís trip up Maslowís hierarchy of human needs.
also want to check with the taxpayers and parents.
really depends upon whether or not the robust enthusiasm for
satisfaction over money is sustainable in a collective bargaining
environment. At this stage, Iím guessing that this variable is
Johnson made it clear that Education|Evolving flitters like a bee;
pollinating folks with new exciting ideas so they can be tried and the
utility of the ideas, if any, can be determined (with other peopleís
money) and shared nationally.
If I were a college education curriculum planner, I would think twice
before sending my students into the real world equipped with the
education idea du jour. Of course, Iím getting old and cynical; I
could be wrong.
David Broden (9) (10) (7) (8)
The thought and
information regarding teacher governed schools is very thoughtful and
intriguing--it does clearly offer separation from some of the "you
must do" topics. The idea of how financial accountability relates to
the school and class room is unclear under this approach. I am sure
the Curt and others have addressed this but I have not seen how this
will change or be impacted. I am also concerned that teacher governed
may remain teacher union or group driven so how do we balance this for
community and parent input etc. The basic idea is clearly a change or
option that should move ahead with thought of some of the details I
have mentioned etc.
Question 2: Approved by the school board yes--approved also by the
teachers union --not necessarily--the role of the unions vs. the
community vs. the teachers seems to be the core of the issue to be
resolved. Local option for the teacher governed approach is very
appealing but with union approval required thsi may not mean local
option so where are we in the process?
Question 3: I would like to believe that this would occur and many
talented individuals would choose a teaching career. To ensure a
link to salary increases and opportunities must be clear. A career
focused on just a long term job vs. growth and advancement must be
part of the plan etc.
Question 4: The idea of requiring teachers to understand the business
of running a school seems to be a no brainer. This should be done
without the teacher run options. Clearly some of the issues today are
simply let's spend to improve without considering the financial
implications etc. This however must be balanced with the need to have
in depth curriculum courses in the students/teachers college education
so that the current and evolving class room skills are understood and
growth. If we add the business management scope to the college years
do we need a 5 year plan for teacher education and readiness?
Prest (0) (5) (0) (0)
As a retired
teacher, principal, superintendent...I have observed the challenges
teachers have with the time demands of teaching, preparing,
communicating with parents, evaluating students, staying up-to-date
with best practices, peer coaching, etc, etc...when is it that
teachers will have the time to develop budgets, administer the same,
operational issues that arise daily, evaluations, phone calls, support
staff supervision, personnel issues, setting and enforcing a myriad of
policies...I have not heard teachers saying we (I) want to run the
Bright Dornblaser (10) (10) (10) (10)
Dillon (8) (10) (7) (8)
Franchett (0) (0) (0) (0)