here for PDF format
of Meeting with Larry Pogemiller
Civic Caucus, 8301
Creekside Circle, Bloomington, MN 55437
Thursday, December 13,
(all by phone):
Johnson, chair; Chuck Clay, Paul Gilje, Jim Hetland, John Mooty, Wayne
Popham, and John Rollwagen
Senator Larry Pogemiller
Welcome and introduction--Verne
and Paul welcomed and introduced State Senator Larry Pogemiller,
Minneapolis, Senate Majority Leader. Pogemiller was served one term
in the House before being elected to the Senate in 1982, where he has
served ever since. He has chaired major committees in the Senate
including the Tax committee and the K12 Education Budget Division.
Pogemiller has a bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a
master's in public administration from the JFK School of Government at
Comments and discussion--During
Pogemiller's comments and in discussion with the Civic Caucus the
following points were raised:
1. A sharp partisan divide--Pogemiller
said a sharp partisan divide in the Minnesota Legislature is reflective of
the nation in general. The sharp divide is a reflection of
disagreement over the role of government in people's lives and a
reflection of decentralization of power in running campaigns.
Today one might think that there's more centralization of power, but that
is not the case. It's pretty much a free market for candidates.
They can use computer power to develop their own data bases and to raise
their own money. They don't need the larger political
organizations as they did in the past. An outcome of the
independence of legislators is an increasing difficulty to accomplish
goals of the leadership and its legislative caucuses.
aspect of the partisan divide is whether--because of the speed with which
information travels today-- certain parts of constitutional government
need to be re-examined. It is much harder to respond in a timely fashion
to problems as they arise.
2. How to reduce the partisan divide--Asked
for specific proposals to reduce partisanship, Pogemiller said the key
need is for contending parties to be civil in their disputes. He
said legislators, interest groups, and people who run campaigns all need a
concerted effort for civility. In addition, he said, truth
almost doesn't matter any more, and with the shakeup in the media it is
more difficult to point out what is, and isn't, truthful in debate.
What's happening in the media today is a throwback to a time in the past,
he said, when all the old media were very clear about their partisan
identification, and wrote accordingly.
3. Reduce number of "safe" seats in the Legislature--Something
that might help, Pogemiller said, is for there to be fewer safe seats
created in redistricting. He personally has been through three
rounds of redistricting. He wouldn't remove politics from the
redistricting process, but he'd like to keep the process from becoming
hyper-political. He's not excited about the Iowa redistricting
system which, he said, leaves too many decisions to the computer.
4. Keep further politicization out of the courts--While
not going into detail about how change would be accomplished, Pogemiller
said changes should be made to keep further politicization out of the
courts. He said the 2008 Legislature will take up the issue for sure
and will consider the Quie commission report and other suggestions.
He'd support a constitutional amendment if that is what would be
5. Education not changing quickly enough--Asked
to expand on his point about difficulty in responding quickly to problems,
Pogemiller said K-12 education is the best example. K-12 education
was built to last, but it has not changed quickly enough to meet the
changing needs of children.
6. Growing role of legislative caucuses in campaigns--Pogemiller
said the legislative caucuses are spending considerable funds on the most
highly contested legislative races (about seven in the Senate, and 20-30
in the House.) It's an unfortunate example of driving politics
further underground, he said.
Pogemiller disputed claims that funds invested by the legislative caucuses
are causing legislators to feel unduly beholden to their caucus
leadership. The independence of individual legislators remains
very strong, he said.
7. Top legislative leaders not exerting too much control--Pogemiller
disputed a concern expressed by State Rep. Alice Hausman in a column by
Lori Sturdevant in the Star Tribune last September that the
Governor, Speaker of the House, and Senate Majority Leader are
centralizing in themselves the key decisions on which legislation should
needs to be cautious about reading too much into pictures or video of top
legislative leaders parading into the Governor's office late in the
session, Pogemiller said. Because of the publicity he and the House
Speaker have now agreed that those media photo opportunities won't be
repeated, he said.
Pogemiller said that before he was elected majority leader he had chaired
12 conference committees and not once was he told by top leadership that
he couldn't cut a deal.
that as current majority leader he has never once told committee chairs
they had to wait for a decision by caucus leadership before taking action
8. Reasons why it's so difficult to take significant action--The
North Star (a reference to Minnesota) has dimmed, Pogemiller said.
He recalls distinctly how legislative leaders in other states used to turn
to Minnesota for innovative solutions, but no longer. We're lagging
in job growth, but we aren't leading in ways to add jobs.
Currently, he said, the Legislature is in a fairly rigid situation, with
the Governor not interested in doing too much, and that has slowed the
Legislature's ability to get things done. Look at the
transportation bill, he said, there was a strong consensus in the
Legislature to take aggressive action, but the Governor didn't offer
if there's a way to lead the state back, Pogemiller said the nation is on
the verge of making a significant change in leadership that will have
impact on the mood in Minnesota. He sees potential for a
significant consensus on energy and the environment and health care.
9. Invest in education--In Minnesota the best thing the
state could do for its economy is to increase its investment in education,
Pogemiller said. In response to a question, he said that
charter schools are helpful but not a panacea. Part of the solution,
he said, must be more authority for the faculty at each school. It
was noted that in some school districts, including Minneapolis, vacancies
in schools are filled by teacher seniority, which means that some senior
teachers select the schools with fewer at-risk children.
Pogemiller replied that there'd be no problem if all schools in the state
had enrollments with a proportionate share of at-risk children.
10. Support for constitutional amendment--A
constitutional amendment would not be Pogemiller's preferred solution for
additional funds for outdoors, clean water, and the arts, but no other way
seems available to get the revenue that is needed in the current political
atmosphere, he said. The amendment is a way to bring the
conservation and cultural interests together.
amendment is passed, why won't education interests follow with their
amendment? Pogemiller was asked. Pogemiller thought this
wouldn’t happen since 40% of the general fund is already devoted to K12
education. It is unlikely that education groups would want to pursue
a constitutional dedication of revenue for education.
11. Allowing outside interests a special voice on appropriations--Pogemiller
was asked why the Legislature is considering giving non-legislative
interests a special voice on appropriating funds that might be made
available in an outdoors constitutional amendment. He said that the
proposal is for the creation of a citizens group whose members would be
appointed by the Governor and the Legislature. The proposal gives
the group the responsibility of allocating funds raised by the sales tax.
This proposal is not yet in the conference committee report, and it is
still under consideration. If this proposal were to be adopted, it
would still need legislative approval in the form of a bill. But,
the proposal is under serious consideration because the appointment
process allows for legislative oversight while still allowing room for
dedicated members of the public to be involved in the process.
12. Precinct caucuses are no longer dominated so much by
has seen a change both locally and nationally on one-issue voters
dominating the political process. Thus he's not so concerned that
precinct caucuses in Minnesota will produce candidates who are tied
strongly to special interests.
13. Support for enabling legislation on Instant Runoff Voting
(IRV)--Pogemiller said he
supports proposed legislation that would make it possible for Minnesota
cities to enact IRV for their own municipal elections, should they choose
to do so.
14. Support for a presidential primary--He
said he would support Minnesota having a presidential primary.
If it were in effect now, he'd favor such a primary on February 5, the
date of precinct caucuses.
15. Support for moving primary election date forward--Pogemiller
likes an earlier primary date because intra-party battles would end
sooner, leaving more time to campaign against the other parties'
16. Support for a metro sales tax for transportation--"Absolutely,"
a one-half cent metro sales tax for transportation is needed he said.
It's not enough just to rely on the gasoline tax, he said. One
bridge is down and that costs $200 million to $300 million. The
state needs something on the order of $1.7 billion to $2.2 billion more
each year. The transportation problem isn't a structural
problem; it's a revenue problem, and the sooner we admit that, the better,
17. Taking revenue sources from other functions?--Asked
whether a metro sales tax would be invading revenue sources that other
functions need, such as education, that don't have ready access to user
fees, Pogemiller said a metro sales tax for transportation wouldn't take
anything away from education.
18. Challenges in the upcoming session--Pogemiller
said a major challenge will be to balance the budget in the 2008 session.
There won't be much available. Asked about the need for such
functions as early childhood development, Pogemiller said the state has
the capacity to fund such needs. It's the political will that
19. Use income tax to increase investment in education--The
data is overwhelming that increasing investment in education would help
the state's economy, and that such investment should be financed by an
increase in the state income tax on higher income earners, he said.
20. Early childhood development an area of potential consensus--It
was noted that Governor Pawlenty and Sen. Pogemiller both have come out in
favor of early childhood development. Pogemiller said that is
an area where a consensus is possible, although it will be very difficult
if the Governor sticks with a no new tax pledge. Early
childhood development shouldn't need a sales tax, Pogemiller said, but if
a penny increase in the sales tax were suggested for early childhood, he
would support the idea.
in the forefront--People
of goodwill want to put Minnesota in the forefront. They know
it takes courage. Unfortunately, the political will is
lacking. Minnesota has prospered as a high investment state
and we're now seeing that it was a failed experiment to try to become a
low investment state. We need to return to the strong
bipartisan programs of the 1950s to 1970s, he said.
22. Improve the media--Pogemiller
said he agrees that strong media are needed. Print media doesn’t
seem to have as much impact TV and talk radio anymore, he said.
People seem to be drawn to the visual nature of TV.
behalf of the Civic Caucus, Verne thanked Pogemiller for meeting with us
The Civic Caucus
is a non-partisan,
tax-exempt educational organization. Core participants
include persons of varying political persuasions, reflecting
years of leadership in politics and business.
A working group meets face-to-face to
provide leadership. They are Verne C. Johnson, chair; Lee
Canning, Charles Clay, Bill Frenzel,
Paul Gilje, Jim Hetland,
John Mooty, Jim Olson, Wayne Popham and John Rollwagen.